So this morning, why I do not know, I turned on American Family Radio briefly, and they were fulminating against the evils of Islam because of the gunman at Fort Hood. One of the guys announces: “Name two Christian terrorists.”
I immediately thought:
- Preacher Killen
- Timothy McVeigh
- John Ford Seale
then a few moments later
- The Provisional Wing of the IRA (that’s a whole collection of them!).
The war crimes committed by the Serbs against the ethnic Albanian Kosovars, who are Muslim, also crossed my mind.  As the reference in the subject header suggests, “Christian terrorism” wouldn’t be anything new or novel. It’s not a tactic confined to anyone one particular sect, group, or ethnicity.
In my opinion, just for starters:
Dick Cheney et al.
James Earl Ray
Byron de la Beckwith
Roy Bryant
J.W. Milam
Christopher Columbus “Crip” Reyer
L. C. Davis
J. Floren Lee
J. F. “Jeff” Lee
Herman Schultz
Arthur Smith
J.P. Walker
Cecil Price
Lawrence Rainey
Ham Slade
Jewell Alford
The substantial majority of all Mississippi law enforcement officers, newspaper editors, white ministers, KKK members, White Citizen Council
members, and a whole lotta others during the 20th Century
And the Crusades, don’t forget the Crusades.
can’t hide from the fact that THIS killer is a Muslim and some people, right or wrong doesn’t matter, will use this an anecdotal evidence that we shouldn’t allow Muslim’s in the military.
and I can’t resist noting the immense outpouring of outrage over these killings from the Muslim world…
Boy, the fact he’s a Muslim is part of the story. I was reacting to the false notion that terrorism is somehow a peculiarly particular project of Islam, as opposed to being a more generally dark side of human nature.
That “Popish Plot” tag should come in handy.
… I’ve been rather startled by how many signs there were of Hasan’s dangerousness. A few are rounded up here. An example:
Hasan gave a lecture on the Koran, and it wasn’t informational as much as it was his own interpretation of it –as the co-workers put it. He talked about how if you’re a non-believer, the Koran says you should have your head cut off, you should have burning oil poured down your throat, you should be set on fire.
Another Muslim in the audience, another psychiatrist, raised his hand, quite disturbed and said, “Ya know, a lot of us [Muslims] do not believe these things you’re saying.”
People actually talked in the hallways afterward whether Hasan was one of these people so tightly wound that he might one day freak out and shoot people –sort of half kidding and half serious.
If the Army doesn’t have some publicized procedure for reporting concerns about such conduct, then they’re nuts. There are too many stressed-out soldiers to simply ignore such patent warning signs. And, good lord — many of these were fellow psychiatrists.
Anderson, where did you get that example? I didn’t find it on your link.
Any post that suddenly, and conveniently, condemns Serb murder in light of the entirety of Balkan historical atrocities doesn’t merit consideration. Congrats Tom for your substantial bout of knee-jerkism. I pray for your recovery … and damn soon.
Bluz, it’s a ways down the post; here’s the source, which I believe is derived from an NPR broadcast I haven’t had time to listen to.
… Owens, what part of “not a tactic confined to anyone one particular sect, group, or ethnicity” did you fail to read? Or was your knee hitting your forehead too sharply for you to focus on what NMC actually wrote?
Anyone know if the Nightriders considered themselves Christian?
You mean, the Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan? Or some other night riders?
What an opportune ‘out’ Anderson. As if NMC’s not even mentioning such a throw away comment even mattered at all. What about that doesn’t register with your myopia? Damn I love this attorney-blog. Y’all know everything.
He said that the Serb war crimes “crossed his mind.” Since those happen to be the worst European massacres since WW2, and since Karadzic happens to be on trial right now for those crimes, it’s a natural assumption.
Why you think that NMC can’t mention Srebenica et al. w/out including a mini-essay on Balkan Muslim violence vs. Christians (and Catholic Croat violence against Orthodox Serbs, & vice-versa, etc., etc.), is perhaps best explained by “myopia.” Or that knee-to-brain injury.
There is no debating such a historically challenged person such as yourself Anderson. Enjoy your little world.
Maybe Eric Rudolph
There is no debating such a historically challenged person such as yourself Anderson
Doubtless that saves you the trouble of (1) adducing any examples (as I did) or (2) explaining what your examples have to do with your silly attack on NMC.
But I *will* enjoy myself, thanks. With the help of some Johnnie Black, I hope. Happy Friday, all!
Doubtless you are CLUELESS regarding Balkan history. Enjoy your booze. It will gird your ignorance.
Spanish Inquisition.
the Puritans
oh yea, almost forgot, Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers.
Doubtless you are CLUELESS regarding Balkan history.
… And no one is getting any smarter about it listening to you, are we?
NMC – why are you so hostile to Christians? Your attack was uncalled for and crass. Yes, there are crazy people. Religion does not cause crazy. Christianity is a philosophy of love. Every day, Christians send doctors, dentists, builders, etc. to the most impoverished people on the planet. Most historical atrocities were committed by those with no religion. Nazis, communists, people with no religion whatsoever – the secular – those are the people who kill with mechanical efficiency. If there is no divine, a person can do kill with reckless abandon because they believe people are just meat. You can legitimately attribute thousands of deaths to the religious. I can legitimately attribute tens of millions to the secular. I love your blog. I think it’s smart and informative. On this topic, you are wrong and insensitive. Attacking Christians is popular, but it is also vulgar and common and expected and dumb and thoughtless. I would expect more from a smart person like you.
I’d be the first, and you’d be the last, to argue otherwise. Get skunked Anderson. Then come back and share your profound insights on some other worthy topic.
Cicero, I am a Christian. I didn’t attack anyone, except the ignorance of the radio comment that asserted there was no such thing as Christian terrorists, an assertion that is just plainly false.
My point is that crazy or aberrational or wrong justifications of terrorism aren’t particular to Islam.
And your assertion that most attrocities are committed by people without religion is just an odd one– start with the Crusades, noted above, and work your way through sectarian violence between Hindu and Muslim in India and Pakistan. Religion has produce a lot of ugly terrorism. There is no uglier version than “Christian identify” as practiced by Klansmen and their successors. It’s real and its ugly. But this seems to be a problem of human nature and evil, or wrong, or I’m not sure how to tag it, not particular to any one group or sects, as I noted above.
I bet there aren’t very many law-related blogsites that debate the sins of Serbs and Croats. Where do we go next?—Turks and Armenians? Hatfields and McCoys? Sheeeeesh.
How about this dude, Fr. Marcial Maciel Degollado?
NMC, are you a regular listener of AFR? Just curious. I’ve tried, but feared that I would drive my car into a tree when I would invariably hear statements like the one noted in your post. I listen to Rush Limbaugh, but only to hear what lies and particular brand of hate he is spewing that day (know your enemy). At least Limbaugh makes no pretense that his views come from a pure place, but that is not the case with AFR.
NMC, I get your point that terrorism is not limited to one particular religion, or the absence of religion. However, as an Irish Roman Catholic, I must point out that the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC), which is the Protestant counterpart to the military wing of the IRA, was responsible for more murders than the IRA. Additionally, the RUC is the military wing of the Protestants in Northern Ireland, the group that held all political power in N. Ireland and that group was/is determined to keep catholics as second-class citizens in Northern Ireland. Much has bee made of the IRA disarming, the RUC seems to have gotten a free pass.
This thread has degenerated into a pissing contest of what group has committed more evils against another group. But, in fact, every group (religious and non-religious) has radical members, possibly suffering from religiousity or anti-religious sentiments (I don’t know the psychiactric term for that), who take up arms against their perceived enemies. Of all people, Mississippians should know the value of reconciliation, as opposed to “Balkanization”. We have a story to tell the rest of the world as to how two racially different groups, with a violent past history, can come to live together peacefully. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than constant racial/religious conflict? Absolutely.
OWIL, I was listening to the radio, not wanting the classical music programming from MPB at that moment, and just spun up the dial. I was thinking I was going to get their “line” on health care reform, not thinking that it would be Muslim-threat day. I will tune in occasionally just to see what’s being said, but have a very low tolerance.
WTBAL, I’m happy to note that terrorism in Ireland was a two-way street, and that the Protestants from a position of power show a determination to treat the Catholics as second class citizens (or non-citizens). I accept your point about that. I was thinking about the bombing campaign in England when I added them to the list.
And your second point, that essentially this is part of the bad or dark side of human nature, is more or less the point I was trying to make. I hesitate to label it– sometimes it reflects mental illness, sometimes just simple evil, sometimes… I’m not sure what else. It seems that this guy at Fort Hood was mentally ill from everything I’ve heard.
NMC, you and I agree on this. The dark side of human nature, where one would do harm to another, is a despicble thing. Unfortunately, in today’s bite sized news cycle, broad generalities of violence are made against peaceful communities. But, that doesn’t hold water. The vast majorities of Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists, B’ahai, etc …, want peace and the right to practice their religion as they see fit. Unfortunately, acts of violence get media attention, but that doesn’t reflect the over 90% of all faiths, and non-faiths, that want to live together peacefully and respectfully.
McVeigh? Christian terrorist?
yeah right.
Yeah, right, Kingfish. He had ties to militia / Christian identity folk, as I understand it, that connect through also to the Klan Christian identity folk like Sam Bowers and Preacher Killen.
Not any mainstream or normal view of Christianity– but nevertheless, that’s what they claim to be.
One of my favorite jokes intersects with this discussion. You can substitute country and religion to suit:
A tourist visits a bar in Northern Ireland. One of the patrons, a bit tipsy, and looking for a fight, asks him confrontationally: Are you a Catholic or a Protestant. The tourist seeking to avoid any trouble responds: “Neither, I’m an Atheist.”
The Patron considers this for a moment, then turns to him again and asks: “Ah, but is it the Catholic or the Protestant God in whom you’re not believing…?”
My take on it is any belief system necessarily creates conflict, even on-line.
A rabbi, a priest, and an imam walk into a bar.
The bartender says, “What is this, some kind of joke?”
Is there a distinction to be made between Muslim and Christian terrorists on their appeal to scripture (i.e., the word of God)?
Did Timothy McVeigh, et al, lead with any rational, coherent justification in the Bible?
Do Islamic terrorists lead with any rational, coherent justification in the Quran?
People going around killing and being associated to religion or the word terrorist. Wouldn’t anyone lose their grace with the almighty a the moment they decide to kill ? Not Muslim,Christians,Hindus etc. Just a murderer.
In a world of ” one man’s terrorist is the others freedom fighter” terrorism is a broad term application. Mc.Veigh raised in a country of Christian culture. Devotes his life to the military and gains greater knowledge serving his country. Regardless of duty many in our military attend church. No doubt military action is thought of as the ridding of evil. Thus we retain our fate.
When Mc.Veigh returned he didn’t see the country he fought for. As he understood military maneuvering. Waco Texas was obviously as unbelievable a thing in the country he loved as was the event at the Mur federal building. What are the are the labels here? One group in Waco. One man in Oklahoma
I can’t disagree with a thing you say, Robert.
I meant to say, when they decide to murder? not kill.
All is a diversion so the focus of discussion will not be on the ineptitude of the United States Army in dealing with the deranged doctor.
It is quite apparent that Dr. Hasan was a whack job and had become a problem for the Army. Rather than dealing with him they choose to ship him off to the wars via Ft. Hood thereby becoming a problem for another command.
As soon as they can find an enlisted man or low level officer to blame for his mishandling, all will be swept under the rug.
WS
All is a diversion so the focus of discussion will not be on the ineptitude of the United States Army in dealing with the deranged doctor.
That certainly seems the case at this point. The man did everything but walk around in a PSYCHO KILLER t-shirt.
Picking on the Army is a one of my main recreational pursuits, and I don’t miss many opportunities to take a shot at the organization … broadly good naturedly, for the most part. But I don’t think the Ft. Hood murders can be pinned on the Army any more than the actions of any other berserk professional can be pinned on his or her professional calling.
Fact of life: the military has an uphill struggle recruiting, training, and retaining good medical personnel. The Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences, headquartered in what formerly was the Bethesda Naval Hospital, aggressively recruits qualified pre-med students. The school offers full-meal deals and generous stipends to its medical school students and commissions them as military officers upon their graduation. Students complete medical school education, including internship and residency, without going into educational debt.
I think the new physicians owe the military a 7-year payback for med school, but don’t cite me as authority for that (or much else). It’s not a rarity for a newly-minted physician/officer to want to shirk or otherwise renege on his/her commitment to serve once the diploma is framed and hanging on the wall, and there are established procedures for handling those situations, just as there have always been ways for handling conscientious objectors who often don’t get religion until just before time to deploy. It happens all the time. It’s not a rarity for a military physician to get involved in self-medicating, philandering, gambling, and all the other sins of the flesh that come their way. I have read news items reporting that Hasan had already received a down-check officer fitness report not long before last week’s murders. The system was already putting him under its professional microscope. But no microscope can magnify murderous tendencies.
Hasan wasn’t the first to go postal. He won’t be the last. The consequences of his rage are far more deadly than any of his (known) predecessors. I’m not sure the Army could reasonably forecast that a physician … a major, no less … is contemplating going postal—certainly no more than the postal service has been able to do. The Army has a history, at least back to Vietnam, of soldiers fragging and sometimes just shooting officers they didn’t like or didn’t want to follow into the bush. How predictable is that?
And I’ll add this: the American armed forces have been operating under wartime standards, requirements, demands, and pressures for nearly a decade. They are all stretched too thin. Way too thin. And it’s been going on way too long. This nation’s military was never designed and intended to engage in warfare for a decade. It was redesigned as an all-volunteer, large cadre force that would, in the event of war, be augmented by the draft. Clearly, no politician has the cajones for instituting the draft, and I doubt Americans would accept it if Congress demanded it. So reserve and national guard forces have been pressed into the breach as keystone units rounding out the active duty forces. These are the nation’s teachers, fireman, policeman, electricians, plumbers, mothers and fathers who joined the reserves and guard as a side-interest … they accepted the responsibility their number may be called, but no one … and I mean NO ONE anywhere in the nation, in government or out … ever contemplated that guard/reserve members would be facing second, third, fourth and maybe even more activations and deployments.
Dr. Hasan created a helluva lotta misery and death. I have no pity or compassion for him. But the Army will examine its medical personnel even more closely and it will look at the larger picture of what protracted war has done and will in the future do our armed forces. It ain’t a pretty sight. But the nation and its government won’t do anything about it.
Let’s see: wartime standards for nearly a decade in a war against a country who attacked us on 911–NOT–and in another war designed to find/attack/kill Osama bin Laden that is winnable–NOT. Mission accomplished–NOT.
In all of human history, more wars were done in the name of religion and more people have died in the name of religion than for any other reason. Jew, Muslim or Christian, a terrorist is on the loosing side. Liberators are on the winning side. Menachem Begin blew up the King David Hotel and murdered 91 people. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1978.
I have to disagree with Natd4 on one level. If you are just counting the number of “wars”, maybe you are correct. But, if you are counting the number of dead, then Stalin and Mao, among others, put up some pretty impressive numbers that dwarf the number of dead from all other wars combined. Stalin and Mao would not use the word “war”, westerners called them “purges”. But, they were civil wars nonetheless.
OWIL: attacking the U.S. response to 9/11 against the country hosting the leadership of the terrorist group that initiated 9/11? As a republican, I certainly hope that your views are reflective of the “typical” liberal democratic view. And, I hope that this view comes to the forefront.
Don’t get me wrong, here. You and I could probably agree that we needed to get in and out of Afghanistan as quickly as possible. Afghanistan is ungovernable, undefeatable, and a cess pool for a modern military. But, if you want to argue that it was a mistake to remove the Taliban, and therefore Al-Quaeda, that is a loser argument for the democratic party.
Another loser argument for the democratic party is “Obama’s Surge”. CBS is reporting that Obama has agreed to send 40,000 more troops, but it will take 3 years to get them all there. If this report is correct, that is not a surge, it’s a trickle. In my opinion (I am non-military, but I have a family member there), Obama is begging for Afghanistan to be his own personal Viet Nam. If that is the best he can do, just bring the ground troops home and bomb from the air. Use predators and informants on the ground to target the Taliban and Al-Quaeda.